Episode 107
Moving Forward: Bishop Trimble and Rev. Dr. Mark Holland from MainStream UMC.com on Post-Conflict United Methodist Church following General Conference
Bishop Julius C. Trimble is the Resident Bishop of the Indiana Area of the United Methodist Church.
Bishop Trimble has the personal mission to encourage all people with the love of Jesus Christ to rise to their highest potential. It is his commitment to his personal mission that led Bishop Trimble to create the “To Be Encouraged” Podcast along with co-host Rev.Dr. Brad Miller.
Bishop Trimble says, “I am compelled by Jesus to share with you an encouraging word or two about Jesus, theology, the Bible, the pandemic, the environment, racism, voting rights, human sexuality, and the state of the United Methodist Church.”
To Be Encouraged with Bishop Julius C. Trimble is to be published weekly and is available at www.tobeencouraged.com and all the podcast directories.
https://www.inumc.org/bishop/office-of-the-bishop/
On Episode 107
**Episode Title: Moving Forward: Bishop Trimble and Rev. Dr. Mark Holland from MainStream UMC.com on Post-Conflict United Methodist Church following General Conference
**Podcast: To Be Encouraged**
**Host: Rev. Dr. Brad Miller**
**Guests: Bishop Julius C. Trimble, Rev. Dr. Mark Holland**
In this insightful episode of "To Be Encouraged," host Rev. Dr. Brad Miller welcomes two distinguished guests, Bishop Julius C. Trimble and Rev. Dr. Mark Holland, Executive Director of Mainstream UMC. The discussion dives deep into pivotal issues facing the United Methodist Church (UMC), such as regionalization, disaffiliation, and the church’s mission moving forward. Here are three key takeaways from this episode:
### 1. **Optimism Amid Change and Challenges**
Bishop Julius C. Trimble shares an optimistic vision for the future of the United Methodist Church. He emphasizes that the church has successfully navigated the challenges posed by the COVID-19 pandemic, which he believes were more daunting than the ongoing debates over human sexuality. Bishop Trimble highlights the resilience and steadfastness of the church, encouraging the community to seize this moment to share love broadly and continue the mission of making disciples. His excitement for meeting young pastors and witnessing the continued commitment to God's call is palpable, demonstrating his hope and encouragement for the UMC’s future.
### 2. **Fundamental Shifts: Regionalization and Disaffiliation**
Rev. Dr. Mark Holland explores the significant outcomes from the recent General Conference, particularly focusing on the topics of regionalization and the end of church disaffiliation. One of the historic changes discussed is the overwhelming support for regionalization, which saw a 78% approval rate at the General Conference. This move allows different regions to navigate their distinct contexts while remaining united under the same church umbrella. Additionally, the decision to stop allowing churches to disaffiliate marks a deliberate effort to cease divisions and conflicts within the UMC, fostering a more united and inclusive community.
### 3. **Removal of Discriminatory Language**
Both guests express a strong commitment to progressive change within the United Methodist Church. One of the landmark decisions discussed is the removal of harmful and discriminatory language from the church’s Book of Discipline. This change signifies a step toward inclusivity and neutrality, eliminating language that has caused marginalization while striving to keep the church’s teachings relevant and compassionate. The conversation notes that there was broad consensus and substantial support for this shift, reflecting a collective move towards a more just and affirming faith community.
### Closing Reflection
The episode wraps up with a moving prayer from Bishop Trimble and a heartfelt reminder from Rev. Dr. Brad Miller to always do good. The dialogue throughout this episode is infused with hope and a clear vision for a more unified and inclusive United Methodist Church, making it a must-listen for anyone invested in the future of their faith community.
**Tune in to "To Be Encouraged" for more inspiring discussions and reflections on faith, love, and the journey ahead for the United Methodist Church.**
Transcript
Hello again, good people, and welcome to this episode of the
Speaker:to be encouraged podcast with Bishop
Speaker:Julius c Trimble. It's the podcast we look to offer an
Speaker:encouraging word to an often discouraged
Speaker:world. A main focus in the United Methodist Church over the
Speaker:last several years, but particularly in April May
Speaker:of 2024 was general conference. It was a 2020
Speaker:general conference advanced to 2024, and there's a whole story about
Speaker:that that we won't get into details. But it was all about, dealing with
Speaker:some significant matters in the life of the church, which have caused some great
Speaker:angst over many years and to find some resolution to
Speaker:those. And, that meant the advocacy groups have stepped
Speaker:forward to advocate for various positions. One of those advocacy groups
Speaker:is mainstream UMC. C may you can find it at mainstream
Speaker:u umc.com. Their exec their executive
Speaker:director, the reverend doctor Mark Holland is Bishop,
Speaker:Trimble and my guest here today on this episode of To Be
Speaker:Encouraged. Bishop, would you help us welcome reverend doctor Mark Holland to our
Speaker:podcast? Well, thank you, Mark, for being with us
Speaker:today and for your leadership in your local
Speaker:community in United Methodist Church and certainly, your
Speaker:voice via mainstream UMC. Glad to have
Speaker:you. Thank you, Bishop. It's an honor to be here. Thank you, Brad.
Speaker:Absolutely. Well, well, Mark, the the the mission of
Speaker:matriarchy of C is a is to work for the unity of the body of
Speaker:Christ. And we do know that in the last several years,
Speaker:there's been a fair amount of disunity in the body of Christ in the United
Speaker:Methodist Church, and yet we came together at general conference
Speaker:of 2020 and the 24 24 to try to come
Speaker:to some resolution regarding this matter or regarding
Speaker:some areas. But I'd be interested to hear a little bit about your your take,
Speaker:your vibe, kind of about the overall tone of the conference, and I know Bishop
Speaker:will have some a few more, pertinent questions for you.
Speaker:Well, I I think the biggest the biggest thing we saw we saw this
Speaker:at our annual conferences last year in the United States. We saw it at the
Speaker:jurisdictional conferences in 2022. We've seen it in
Speaker:Europe and the Philippines where there's been a consensus about
Speaker:moving towards regionalization and moving to live together
Speaker:in disagreement. And I think that the folks who could not
Speaker:live together in disagreement for whom, you know,
Speaker:homosexuality is an existential crisis for them, went ahead
Speaker:and left. And I think for the rest of us who gathered,
Speaker:there's been a real sense of consensus that we're just not gonna agree on
Speaker:anything. And it's like we do with our families, Mercy. If our families had to
Speaker:agree on everything, we wouldn't have Thanksgiving done. We wouldn't get together
Speaker:for Christmas and Easter. We wouldn't have family reunions or 4th
Speaker:July. The reality is in order to
Speaker:live together in civil society, we have to get along with disagreement.
Speaker:And so we really saw that consensus developing. What we didn't know is if that
Speaker:consensus would carry over to general conference, and it did. And I think it's
Speaker:it's remarkable. One of the things I've said both in secular
Speaker:politics and in church politics, if you're working just to win,
Speaker:you're working for 50% plus 1, and you fail,
Speaker:you fall back to logjam. And that's where Washington C is, and that's
Speaker:where our church has been. But if you're working for consensus
Speaker:and you fall back you can't quite get there, you fall back to majority,
Speaker:a majority that people can live with. And so what we saw at general
Speaker:conference I mean, my highest and best hope for removing the language is
Speaker:53% based on our number counting, while we
Speaker:got 60, 70% for removing the language, not
Speaker:because everyone agrees with removing the language, but because people are in a
Speaker:place where we can live with difference. The same
Speaker:thing with regionalization. I thought it was a coin flip that we passed
Speaker:regionalization, and we passed it
Speaker:with 78%. And even if everyone who hadn't
Speaker:been there was present and voting against it, it still would have passed
Speaker:because there's a consensus in the United Methodist Church right now that we wanna live
Speaker:together for the global mission. And it was powerful and
Speaker:palpable to feel that consensus emerge through the
Speaker:2 weeks in the legislative process compared to how it's been. I've
Speaker:been a delegate or an alternate since 2000, and it has
Speaker:been a toxic environment of division and
Speaker:political wrangling and maneuvering. This was different, and it
Speaker:was it was refreshing. Bishop, would you be in agreement about this sense of
Speaker:a consensus? And what's your take on what, what Mark has shared
Speaker:here? I think he's spot on. I I I I had to
Speaker:come back and apologize to our cabinet about general conference
Speaker:because I said prior to this, I said general conference tend tends to
Speaker:be overrated. I was wrong because this this general
Speaker:conference was not overrated. And I often said that, you know,
Speaker:most significant change will happen outside of general conference, but I
Speaker:think there was sea change in the United Methodist Church,
Speaker:us moving to what several bishops refer to, but others
Speaker:refer to as a post conflict church. Yeah. So I
Speaker:thought there was consensus, but, also, what we like to lift up here
Speaker:in Indiana, you know, there was a real opportunity for Christian conferencing.
Speaker:And I saw that in several several places. So,
Speaker:as Mark pointed out, even if the people that were not able to
Speaker:make it there had made it there and, say, 75% of them voted
Speaker:in in opposition to what passed, it still would have passed. So
Speaker:I think the church is the church is at a different place. Obviously,
Speaker:some of that's related to those who have already left
Speaker:because as as Mark said, it couldn't be in a family where there was
Speaker:significant live with significant disagreement. So I thought it
Speaker:was a great conference, and it wasn't overrated. In fact, it,
Speaker:if anything, it over delivered on what I expected. And like Mark,
Speaker:I I was on the host committee in 2000 in Cleveland and
Speaker:have been to general conference ever since then.
Speaker:And it was the first time there was a conference where there wasn't disruption in
Speaker:the plenary itself. There were protests particularly
Speaker:around Gaza in the hallways and outside. I participated
Speaker:in outside protests. But but there there
Speaker:was there was a sense that that people who love The United Methodist Church,
Speaker:love Jesus, wanted to see the church transition
Speaker:to a post conflict church. Not to say that we there's gonna be no
Speaker:conflict, but where conflict is not the number one thing on
Speaker:the agenda. Well, Mark, your
Speaker:mainstream UMC is an advocacy C, and so you worked hard
Speaker:to advocate for several positions here entering general conference. And
Speaker:you just indicated a second ago that there was some anxiety, but I was gonna
Speaker:go, you know, in terms of the actual votes and so on.
Speaker:Let's just break them down for a few minutes here. Let's break down
Speaker:the 5 the 3 biggies as far as I'm concerned or my understanding, you
Speaker:know, regionalization, removing a harmful language, and
Speaker:stopping disaffiliations. There may be other things we wanna talk about, but really want
Speaker:us to touch on those. So let's just start those kind of in the
Speaker:order we I just mentioned them. Let's just track the the
Speaker:regionalization issue, how it was going in the general
Speaker:conference, how it played out during the conference, and what are kinda
Speaker:little bit what the, impact or the aftermath
Speaker:of the vote will be moving forward. Well,
Speaker:the the biggest issue other than the other two issues, removing the harmful language
Speaker:and the stopping disaffiliation, both required
Speaker:only a majority vote. We were confident going in we had the majority
Speaker:of based on our number counting from 2019 and
Speaker:changes in voting and who is present, we were confident we had
Speaker:those votes. The but only to the height of 53%,
Speaker:honestly. That's that's about where that would be our highest
Speaker:watermark if we had reached that. It could have been much closer.
Speaker:But the the big thing about regionalization, it takes a 2 thirds vote. And you
Speaker:don't get to 2 thirds if there's not a consensus. And all 5
Speaker:jurisdictions in the US had voted aspirationally in 2022 to
Speaker:support regionalization. The Philippines annual conferences, many of
Speaker:them had voted aspirationally to support regionalization as had
Speaker:conferences in Europe. The group we hadn't heard from, it was from
Speaker:Africa, and that's about a third of the delegates. Now we heard a lot of
Speaker:the Bishop saying in Africa that they were open to it.
Speaker:But because of the communication gap, we couldn't
Speaker:talk directly to many of the African delegates. 1, we didn't
Speaker:know who they were. 2, the general conference used to publish
Speaker:contact information and have stopped doing that. I think the lawyers
Speaker:said you can't do that anymore, which we need to have people sign a disclaimer.
Speaker:I think people need to put contact information on. They're an
Speaker:elected official, frankly, and their own their own annual
Speaker:conference should be able to But that's a whole another issue. But
Speaker:Sure. We we weren't able to get deep enough into the delegations in
Speaker:Africa to really know what was gonna happen. And what we learned was
Speaker:there was a there's a consensus in Africa for regionalization
Speaker:and significant. And that was the biggest,
Speaker:the most pleasant surprise. And even after the
Speaker:language was removed and even after the regionalization
Speaker:passed, to hear some of the very traditional I mean, all of the bishops in
Speaker:Africa are very traditional. I mean, not even kinda traditional. They're all very traditional.
Speaker:You hear several of them, the very traditional bishops in Africa
Speaker:saying, we saw what happened at general conference. We're committed to remaining
Speaker:United Methodist. We're committed to regionalization. That is
Speaker:the most endearing part of it. So I thought it was a
Speaker:coin flip if it would pass. I was very skeptical it would be ratified because
Speaker:now every annual conference has to vote, and the aggregate of that vote has to
Speaker:reach 2 thirds. It's not 2 thirds of annual conferences. It's
Speaker:2 thirds of all the members of annual. That's a very different number. So
Speaker:I am more encouraged that ratification can occur. I do think we need to work
Speaker:for it. My experience politically is things don't happen magically, but
Speaker:you need to advocate and help message. So
Speaker:I do think it's there, but I I think the the possibility is
Speaker:there, and I feel a lot better about it following this vote.
Speaker:And Bishop Bishop, would you be react to that? It sounds like it was kind
Speaker:of a serendipitous type of, moment. The result, you know, just
Speaker:a a god thing, if you will, that it did occur. But your your take
Speaker:on what Mark just shared there about, regionalization,
Speaker:how it played out. I concur I concur with what everything Mark has said.
Speaker:I think one of the un unreported stories of general
Speaker:conference is the fact that and there
Speaker:was vocal vocal, confirmation of this
Speaker:that many of the African delegates and certainly many of the bishops, and I've
Speaker:worked closely with many of the African Bishop, have
Speaker:such a strong love for the flame and the for crossing the flame,
Speaker:the United Methodist as a as a body, as an
Speaker:entity, as an identity that that
Speaker:for them, regionalization made sense and and would
Speaker:not compromise their ability to hold together
Speaker:United Methodist in their their particular regions while there may be
Speaker:some who who simply couldn't stay. But
Speaker:I was not surprised that there was support,
Speaker:and and and and I think it I think it behooves us not to
Speaker:for anyone to take too much credit and just say as we said in the
Speaker:beginning, it was general consensus and it was the work of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker:Amen. But that's what the preachers were saying anyway that Right. You were preaching. It
Speaker:was the work of the Holy Spirit. And so maybe God wanted to show
Speaker:us that not only are you organizing, but but
Speaker:but my will is that the church church be 1 going forward.
Speaker:So I I concur with what what what Mark
Speaker:said, and and I would have not predicted the numbers that the
Speaker:that this past that the numbers that Give us a little give me a little
Speaker:idea. I know it's around 500 delegates, and, you know, it was 2 thirds. Were
Speaker:we well over the 2 thirds, or was it a close was it close to
Speaker:There's supposed to be 862 delegates. I think there were only 750
Speaker:C. And so we needed 2 thirds vote, but we got
Speaker:78% Okay. Good. In the regionalization. 78%.
Speaker:Wow. How about that? Overwhelming. And as Bishop said, you
Speaker:know, there are a 100 plus delegates that weren't there. Maybe a 110
Speaker:delegates who weren't there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If all of them had voted
Speaker:no, it still would have been 2 thirds if all of them had voted no.
Speaker:And we know we lost a ton of pro regionalization votes of people who couldn't
Speaker:get there. Sure. That's very good. I think that consensus was So
Speaker:the con the consensus was clear is all I really wanna get with that point.
Speaker:The consensus was clear with the body. Let's move on then to to
Speaker:the removal of harmful language. So, Mark, give us your take on how
Speaker:that played out entering to general conference, how it played
Speaker:out during the conference, and maybe some implications moving forward.
Speaker:Well, we were again, we're pretty confident we had the votes. You know,
Speaker:2019, the 1 church plan failed by
Speaker:50 votes, and the traditional plan failed by or passed by 50
Speaker:votes. And that was not a consensus. And we
Speaker:needed 26 people to change their mind. Well, following that
Speaker:2019 vote in February, in the spring, May
Speaker:June in the US, annual conferences elected new delegations
Speaker:and overwhelmingly voted out a number of the
Speaker:traditional delegates and put in centrist and progressives.
Speaker:Indiana saw this. Great Plains saw this. I mean, a lot of conferences
Speaker:across the country. We knew we picked up the 26 votes we
Speaker:needed to reverse that decision as early as 2019.
Speaker:Then which is why they came out and asked for the protocol
Speaker:because they knew the the conservative organizations
Speaker:knew that they were not gonna be able to hold the line because we had
Speaker:picked up the votes. Then with disaffiliations, the US lost 25%
Speaker:of our of our votes or our members. But the general
Speaker:conference did not recount votes, so we backfilled people
Speaker:who had left with centrist and progressives. So we knew we had
Speaker:even more votes than we had before. And then we were picking up
Speaker:support around the world. So going in, we were very confident we had
Speaker:the votes to remove the harmful language, and we were pretty specific in our coalition
Speaker:that we didn't wanna add language. And this was controversial
Speaker:because many, on the left wanna add affirmative language
Speaker:of nondiscrimination language against gay and lesbian people, which we've done in the
Speaker:secular communities, particularly in the United States. And there
Speaker:was a real holding of our coalition to say, you know, we
Speaker:wanna be clear. There's room for everyone. We want traditionalists in our church. We want
Speaker:conservatives in our church, and we're going to hold the line on just removing
Speaker:the language and reverting it back to neutral. And letting the annual conferences
Speaker:decide who's eligible for ordination. Let churches
Speaker:and pastors decide who who does weddings and not
Speaker:not move further forward. That was very controversial on our coalition, but
Speaker:we were we didn't wanna do that with a 51% majority. That
Speaker:just feels harmful. Right? It just feels harmful to
Speaker:to forward in. We need to find consensus yet on where we're headed. We
Speaker:found consensus on removing the language. I think we need to hold that. So we
Speaker:got huge numbers. I mean, it was passing in the consent calendar by 90%. Now
Speaker:the consent calendar skewed because I would predict the
Speaker:majority of delegates do not read what's on the consent calendar. But
Speaker:we were even getting things that came up for a vote. We're getting 65
Speaker:70%, which means people recognize it's time to move forward.
Speaker:Sure. And it sounds like in effect, the effect,
Speaker:we just moved as as far as the book of discipline goes, we just
Speaker:went back to, what, 1972 discipline or something like that. Right? Is it
Speaker:kind of what, in effect, what what we did? So well,
Speaker:Bishop, react to what, Mark has, shared here and
Speaker:particularly how you think the vibe in the room was or
Speaker:how people reacted to this. I know this has been the
Speaker:contentious point in the church for decades,
Speaker:but now we have this moment of some resolution. Well, I'd I like the
Speaker:quote from, doctor Ashley Bogan, the,
Speaker:general secretary of United Methodist Archives in
Speaker:History. This is the first time in 240 years
Speaker:that the Methodist Church has not had discriminatory language in
Speaker:its book of discipline. So if we go back to slavery and we
Speaker:go back you know, whether slaveholders, we go back to segregation,
Speaker:essential jurisdiction, the the the
Speaker:the right for women to become ordained preachers of so forth and
Speaker:so on and so that this is the first time we've not had discriminatory
Speaker:language in our book of discipline. So this is a watershed
Speaker:moment. And Bishop Tracy Smith, along the new
Speaker:president of the council, the bishop said that we don't this is not a time
Speaker:for us to show up stingy with grace. I really like that quote.
Speaker:So I think that the onus is on the United Methodist
Speaker:Church now really to impact our communities
Speaker:because now our ecumenical partners and interfaith partners said, okay. You
Speaker:no longer have an infighting. Let's get on with the business of transforming
Speaker:the world. Making disciples but also transforming the world.
Speaker:So I I think this I used to people used to
Speaker:ask me, you know, they try to get bishops in in a trick bag and
Speaker:say, well, do you do you adhere to the book of discipline? I said,
Speaker:yes. They said, what about every single word in John? I said, well, I think
Speaker:we have contradictions in our book of discipline. We say we welcome all people,
Speaker:and we are we are commended to and mandated to be in ministry with and
Speaker:for all people. Then we had contradictory language
Speaker:except for if, you know, you're practicing homosexual, you
Speaker:know, that's incompatible with Christian teaching, and you can't be ordained.
Speaker:So I think now we no longer have those contradictory
Speaker:sentences in the same paragraphs, if you will. It was significant. It'd
Speaker:be interesting to hear Mark's take on this. When, someone came to the
Speaker:floor and it it it was briefly discussed or
Speaker:debated, there was a need to add marriages between a
Speaker:man and a woman. I know for I know for traditionists here in Indiana
Speaker:and other places, by just affirming that marriage is between a
Speaker:man and a woman and adults of legal
Speaker:age, then then there wasn't there wasn't a dismissal. Now some
Speaker:would have preferred there would be no reference to that, but I think that would
Speaker:goes back to what Mark said about some consensus. How do you how do you
Speaker:bring about consensus? I don't wanna speak for you. Mark, how do you reflect?
Speaker:Bishop, I thought that was an amazing moment on the floor of general conference
Speaker:because we knew the definition of marriage was gonna be an issue in the revised
Speaker:social principles. Now the coalition had the 3 r's, you know,
Speaker:revised social principles, removing the language, and and
Speaker:regionalization. Mainstream clumped removing the harmful
Speaker:language and revised social principles together as a single goal because they both
Speaker:accomplished that. And then we added stopping disaffiliations. But
Speaker:that I think that moment when a a woman from Africa who had
Speaker:just been elected to our to
Speaker:our judicial council. This is a woman who's just elected.
Speaker:So she's the one you know, she's was lifted up by Africa as
Speaker:as a leader and came to the microphone and
Speaker:offered this amendment that obviously got bogged down in parliamentary
Speaker:procedure the
Speaker:course
Speaker:state the course and ultimately what she presented from Zimbabwe
Speaker:was it's she recognized we agreed to
Speaker:disagree. That we recognize in Africa is between a
Speaker:man and a woman, and in the United States, it's between and for some people
Speaker:in the United States, it's between a man and a woman. For some people in
Speaker:the United States, it's 2 consenting adults. So if I
Speaker:remember putting both of those in there in kind of an awkward parenthetical
Speaker:statement, it works. And it passed
Speaker:by, like, 80%. I mean, it was a it was an overwhelming
Speaker:consensus moment to say something that we failed to pass in, Bishop.
Speaker:I don't know if you remember this at general conference. I think it was at
Speaker:2012 in Tampa. There was a resolution said, we
Speaker:agree to disagree, and it failed,
Speaker:like, 5149. Which proved the point.
Speaker:It proved the point. It proved the point. So I was
Speaker:really surprised. There was no one who had
Speaker:who was contemplating that. What we were prepared to
Speaker:do in the coalition was just to vote it through as as it stood. But
Speaker:that compromise really caught people un
Speaker:unaware, and it was the right thing at the right moment. It
Speaker:was a holy spirit moment to agree to disagree, and it was powerful.
Speaker:I think it also strengthens the case for regionalization
Speaker:as well. Sure. That's exactly right, Bishop. I think it's it's interesting how
Speaker:all these issues seem to come together, and they're I wasn't at general
Speaker:conference, but it's both of you, I'm hearing you say there was just some kinda
Speaker:god moments here. So things where things came together that just C to be of
Speaker:the holy spirit, and that's a a cool thing. But I do want us to
Speaker:touch on the other kinda hot button issue because it's interrelated to these other 2.
Speaker:Of course, when we talk about harmful language, that led
Speaker:to a process of disaffiliation over the
Speaker:last several years. And one of the other
Speaker:matters that was taken up that, majorly, UMC
Speaker:particularly was pointing to was to stopping, you
Speaker:know, stopping the disaffiliation process. So can you speak to that and how
Speaker:that came up at general conference and how it was addressed? Well, there were
Speaker:several petitions to extend paragraph 2553. Paragraph
Speaker:2553, you might remember, was written by traditionalists. It was amended
Speaker:on the floor in 2019 where everyone kinda chipped in
Speaker:to make it better because it was terrible. It was worse than it is.
Speaker:And 2553 is part of the traditional plan that was forced on the
Speaker:church, and it was designed to get the quote, unquote liberals
Speaker:to leave. And what in fact happened was when
Speaker:they realized they won the vote but lost the church,
Speaker:the conservatives decided to take their own gracious exit,
Speaker:which is what they call it. They call it the gracious exit, and then did
Speaker:nothing but complain about the terms of it. Let me just remind you, you
Speaker:wrote it. If it's good enough for the, quote, unquote, liberals, it's good
Speaker:enough for you. So they and of course, centrists are the ones who
Speaker:just get caught in the middle thinking why is everybody fighting. So this this piece
Speaker:on the disaffiliations went through
Speaker:25% of churches left. In Great Plains, we had about 25% leave.
Speaker:We kinda match the national average. And That's
Speaker:about what we had in Indiana too. Right, Bishop? In that neighborhood? I forget. A
Speaker:little more than that. We had a little more than 25%. Okay. And we but
Speaker:we had 4 year as I said last and the conference,
Speaker:I said people have had 4 years to disaffiliate. If they couldn't
Speaker:disaffiliate, and then they did did need an extension. So
Speaker:but I think some people came to this recent general conference
Speaker:anticipating, not that promises were made, but
Speaker:there were Bishop, and I know there were others who were saying, you know, let's
Speaker:see what general conference does. And no one said that there was
Speaker:gonna be an extension, but I think some people some
Speaker:people who were not prepared fiscally or
Speaker:otherwise to disaffiliate were anticipating or hoping that
Speaker:there would be some extension or some new revised
Speaker:2553. And I think the general conference said, this is
Speaker:not helpful to advance the cause of the mission of the church,
Speaker:and it's it's it has expired sunset,
Speaker:and let it be gone. And, Mark, that was an over that was an overwhelming
Speaker:vote too, I believe. Overwhelming. In fact, it never made it out committee. It never
Speaker:came to the floor. It went straight through consent calendar. I mean, nobody even
Speaker:it was dead on arrival. Yeah. And just to be clear, Mark, what it it
Speaker:affect means is that the window opportunity, as it were,
Speaker:closed December 31, 2023 for churches to
Speaker:disaffiliate, and the effort to extend that window
Speaker:was denied by the voted general conference. That's what we did. Right? That's
Speaker:what we did. And I will re I'll reiterate, churches
Speaker:have always come and gone from the United Methodist Church. And so there have always
Speaker:been provisions for churches to leave. Those still remain in the book of discipline.
Speaker:What it means though is this was kind of a sweetheart deal
Speaker:where, you know, you had new church starts
Speaker:where annual conferences had invested literally 1,000,000 of dollars
Speaker:into properties and churches. Watch that
Speaker:investment walk out the door. Yep. Right? And and
Speaker:United Methodist Faithfully United Methodist funded these churches, and they
Speaker:walked out the door with with all of them. Yeah. Yeah. So that that
Speaker:was a big piece of 2553 is, obviously, there are
Speaker:legal implications, federal law. You've gotta pay your part of
Speaker:a pension. You can't walk out of a pension plan. You can't walk away from
Speaker:a pension plan legally. So they had to pay their portion of the pension,
Speaker:which is required. Now the conference can negotiate.
Speaker:Cabinet trustees can negotiate with any church that doesn't want that doesn't wanna
Speaker:stay at the terms of departure. What I didn't wanna see was
Speaker:another top down because there were a lot of conferences that did this
Speaker:well. I mean, we had churches you know, the Texas conference
Speaker:lost half its churches. The idea of reopening it.
Speaker:So every church because here's the harm. It's when
Speaker:there there were churches that got divided just over whether or not to
Speaker:vote, by putting by taking off the table the opportunity to
Speaker:vote, then the churches can just say, hey, we're done. And
Speaker:people need to make a decision of where they wanna go to church. And, you
Speaker:know, I think the dividing of congregations could
Speaker:not continue. And opening another window for 2
Speaker:more years, 3 more years well, what good news wanted was 2029.
Speaker:Right? They wanted just this fight to go on forever. We're done
Speaker:fighting. It's back to what the Bishop said. We're in a post conflict
Speaker:denomination. Sir, and this pro mission. And this is just
Speaker:an area to kinda stop the bleeding. You know, there's still a process here, and
Speaker:let's get on with, ministry. So, well, Mark, the
Speaker:the vision and mission of this particular Bishop, Trimble's podcast is to
Speaker:it's called the to be encouraged. And I like I always like to
Speaker:give the bishop the last word, but I'd like to have you to kinda give
Speaker:your take on kind of these the story, the
Speaker:narrative of of general conference in
Speaker:terms you know, kind of incorporating some of the the cuss discussion we have
Speaker:today. But what out of that leaves you encouraged for the
Speaker:church moving forward? Because now we gotta take every local church and
Speaker:every local church pastor now has to take what general conference has done and
Speaker:apply it to their situations. What encourages you?
Speaker:Well, Brad, I wanna thank you for the opportunity to be on your podcast. Again,
Speaker:Bishop, thank you for the invitation. It's an honor to share the time
Speaker:with you. My encouragement is that we are in
Speaker:a in a post conflict church. My encouragement is we're
Speaker:we have a great mission to make disciples of Jesus Christ for the
Speaker:transformation of the world. And that's what we're called to do. That's who we are.
Speaker:I'm a 3rd generation Methodist pastor. And
Speaker:my great grandma, our jurisdictional conference
Speaker:in South Central will be at Rogers, Arkansas,
Speaker:and that's Central United Methodist Church. That's where my great grandfather that's the church in
Speaker:which my great grandfather was ordained in 1920. Wow. And so,
Speaker:actually, my dad's coming with me. I'm bringing him to jurisdictional conference so we can
Speaker:be there together. But this is my dad's a retired clergy
Speaker:in in Great Plains. I'm encouraged by saying my
Speaker:dad is fond of saying that history of the church is written in centuries, not
Speaker:in decades. Mhmm. And we've had some tough
Speaker:decades in the United Methodist Church, but God is not done
Speaker:with us, and God is not done with the church. The church has survived 2000
Speaker:years of human occupation, and the church is gonna continue to
Speaker:march forward for to spread god's will in this in this world. So I'm
Speaker:encouraged by that. I'm encouraged by the by the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Speaker:I'm encouraged by the leadership we have in our bishops. I'm encouraged by
Speaker:the direction we're moving as a denomination. I think it's a new
Speaker:day, and I think we need to celebrate that and live into it.
Speaker:Awesome. The, I love what you said. You know, this whole thing about, you
Speaker:know, the post conflict church, we'll see how that plays out. So,
Speaker:Bishop, how about a a last word, an encouraging word from you about what our
Speaker:conversation here was entailing, and maybe you could close us with a prayer,
Speaker:please. Well, I I I'm encouraged by just the
Speaker:the the vast number of people who still hear the call of
Speaker:God. You know, we celebrated a number of deaconesses
Speaker:that are sent forth from general conference to do ministry in their local
Speaker:communities here in the US and across the globe.
Speaker:And we are looking forward to now to annual conferences taking
Speaker:place in the US and across the globe where the United
Speaker:Methodist Church will be able to respond to children who are
Speaker:in poverty, or they'll be respond to the needs of our particular
Speaker:community to be able to speak clearly. And I'm excited
Speaker:about the fact we have after 12 years of of
Speaker:revised social principles. You know? That was 2,012 when this
Speaker:that work began. And so they have revised social principles
Speaker:that are more user friendly across the globe, not just
Speaker:US totally US centric. There's a lot to be excited
Speaker:about particularly for those who have years
Speaker:yet to go. You and I, Brad, we're we're in a
Speaker:different chapter of our ministry, but there are others who are following us.
Speaker:And I'm excited about the folks I just met at our at
Speaker:our Rem retreat, the pastors who have a lot of years
Speaker:ahead of them that are going to be doing United Methodist ministry. So
Speaker:I think we're I've said this time and time, Brett, we've had
Speaker:podcasts about this. I said if the pandemic couldn't kill the church,
Speaker:nothing could kill the church. So I don't I don't think that our
Speaker:our our our long standing debate about human sexuality
Speaker:was nearly as challenging as a 2 slash 3
Speaker:year pandemic. And we we find ourselves now
Speaker:we've we shifted and moved. We now you know, we're slowly
Speaker:we're dragged into the 21st century with social media
Speaker:platforms. But I think if the pandemic and and my
Speaker:theology is such that the church is of god. And so
Speaker:Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against my church. So I think
Speaker:it's a great time to be a Christian and follow-up Jesus and a
Speaker:great time for people to to know that they are loved and
Speaker:for us to take the responsibility to share that that
Speaker:share that message widely and broadly. Did you wanna close us with prayer, Bishop?
Speaker:Absolutely. Lord god, we give you thanks and praise for the gift of
Speaker:life and for the gift of love.
Speaker:And because you've given us life, we have the opportunity to
Speaker:spread your grace, your love, your mercy in all
Speaker:communities, all places with all people. Bless us to be a blessing,
Speaker:Lord, and we will continue to give you all praise. In Jesus'
Speaker:name, be encouraged. Amen. And we do thank you for
Speaker:listening to the 2 Be Encourage podcast with
Speaker:Bishop Julia c Tribble. Our special guest today, reverend
Speaker:doctor Mark Holland, executive director of mainstreamumc
Speaker:dotcom. You can find the links at to be encouraged.com.
Speaker:Speaking for reverend doctor Mark Holland and, Bishop
Speaker:Trimble, I'm reverend doctor Brad Miller reminding you to always
Speaker:do all the good that you can.
