Episode 94
"The Disaffiliation Dilemma in A Local United Methodist Church" Part 2 Divorce, Custody, Recovery, Encouragement and A Hopeful Future
Bishop Julius C. Trimble is the Resident Bishop of the Indiana Area of the United Methodist Church.
Bishop Trimble has the personal mission to encourage all people with the love of Jesus Christ to rise to their highest potential. It is his commitment to his personal mission that led Bishop Trimble to create the “To Be Encouraged” Podcast along with co-host Rev.Dr. Brad Miller.
Bishop Trimble says, “I am compelled by Jesus to share with you an encouraging word or two about Jesus, theology, the Bible, the pandemic, the environment, racism, voting rights, human sexuality, and the state of the United Methodist Church.”
To Be Encouraged with Bishop Julius C. Trimble is to be published weekly and is available at www.tobeencouraged.com and all the podcast directories.
https://www.inumc.org/bishop/office-of-the-bishop/
Welcome to episode 094 of To Be Encouraged with Bishop Julius C. Trimble and Rev. Dr. Brad Miller. In this two-part series, we dive into the Disaffiliation Dilemma in the United Methodist Church, focusing on the particular case of the Madison North United Methodist Church in Madison, Indiana. Episode 094 is part 2 in the series. In this episode we explore the impact of disaffiliation, likening it to a divorce and custody battle, and how the church is navigating recovery and finding hope for the future.
Joined by guest Rev. Tracey Leslie, from the Indiana Annual Conference Staff and Tanya Hess from the North Madison United Methodist Church, we discuss the emotional aftermath of the vote for disaffiliation and the challenges the church faced in continuing its ministry, including a particularly meaningful story about a donut stand ministry at the county fair. We also explore how the church dealt with the analogy of divorce and custody battle, and how they are working to redefine their narrative and find hope for the future.
Bishop Julius C Trimble weighs in with insightful commentary, offering words of encouragement and hope for churches facing similar challenges. Join us as we delve into this difficult yet ultimately uplifting story of resilience and faith, and learn how one church is finding new purpose and determination in the face of adversity.
Rev. Tracey Leslie <tracey.leslie@inumc.org>;
Tanya Hess <tarhess@msn.com>
Transcript
The Disaffiliation Dilemma in 1
Speaker:Local United Methodist Church.
Speaker:Part 2, divorce, custody,
Speaker:recovery, and encouragement for a hopeful
Speaker:future. Here on episode number 94
Speaker:of the 2 be encouraged podcast
Speaker:with Bishop Julius C Trimble.
Speaker:You are welcome to be encouraged
Speaker:with Bishop Julius C Trimble.
Speaker:Bishop Trimble is on a mission to encourage you
Speaker:with the love of Jesus Christ so you can
Speaker:rise to your highest potential.
Speaker:On to be encouraged, Bishop Trimble speaks to a
Speaker:discouraged world with a good word
Speaker:on the pandemic, racism, the environment,
Speaker:human sexuality, and the state of the church with
Speaker:a focus on centering your life
Speaker:on the love of Jesus Christ. Has there
Speaker:ever been a more needed time for an
Speaker:encouraging word to our world. This
Speaker:is your time to rise to your greatest
Speaker:potential and to be encouraged with Bishop
Speaker:Julius C. Trimble.
Speaker:Hello, good people, and welcome to to be
Speaker:encouraged with Bishop Julius c Trimble.
Speaker:This is the podcast where we look to offer an encouraging
Speaker:word on an often discouraged world.
Speaker:I am your cohost, reverend doctor Brad Miller. Here
Speaker:on episode 94 of to be encouraged,
Speaker:we continue a conversation that we began on
Speaker:episode number 93. This is this part 2 of a 2 part conversation
Speaker:around disaffiliation in the United
Speaker:Methodist Church as particularly exemplified in the case
Speaker:of one local United Methodist Church,
Speaker:the Madison North United Methodist Church in Madison, Indiana.
Speaker:Today, in in our last episode, episode 94, we talked
Speaker:about the process of of discernment,
Speaker:some of the discouraging aspects of that, the divorce that
Speaker:really takes place when the vote for
Speaker:disaffiliation occurs. And today on episode or part 2
Speaker:of this 2 part episode, episode 94, We're
Speaker:talking about the impact of divorce
Speaker:at a local church. We're gonna talk about a custody battle, in
Speaker:particular, the context of a donut stand that this local church had,
Speaker:the recovery process, and some
Speaker:encouraging words for a hopeful future. The
Speaker:context of our conversation is
Speaker:with 2 wonderful persons connected to
Speaker:the conversation around disaffiliation
Speaker:at 1 local United Methodist Church North UMC in Madison, Indiana.
Speaker:We have with us as our guest today on the podcast,
Speaker:reverend Tracy Leslie. She's a staff person
Speaker:related to innovation, engagement, and development
Speaker:in the Indiana Conference of United Methodist Church. And among the things
Speaker:in our portfolio is helping churches to navigate
Speaker:these conversations around disaffiliation
Speaker:and to help them in recovery process to happen.
Speaker:And we're also privileged and really blessed to have with us Tanya Hess, a devoted
Speaker:layperson from the North Madison United Methodist Church. She
Speaker:really pours her heart out in this episode and the prior episode
Speaker:in terms of what really happened kind of in a really, really
Speaker:detailed manner in that local church. There's a real
Speaker:value in hearing this conversation in regards to how that
Speaker:relates to United Methodist Churches going through
Speaker:this process, the impact upon those
Speaker:churches, the impact upon our denomination in terms of our effectiveness
Speaker:and our value moving forward, and how it can be very helpful to
Speaker:local church clergy and devoted laypeople who care, who care
Speaker:deeply about the mission of making disciples
Speaker:of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world, and who care about their local
Speaker:church and their community. So today, we're gonna talk about the context of
Speaker:the disaffiliation dilemma. The
Speaker:conversation took place in this one particular United Methodist
Speaker:Church. And Bishop Trimble then speaks to this in several
Speaker:different questions that we address here today. This interview is done
Speaker:in narrative style, which means I interviewed, Tracy
Speaker:and Tanya. And then later on, Bishop, Trimble
Speaker:gave his input. And so that's how it is edited together, in case
Speaker:you, have some questions about how how we did this.
Speaker:The context here is that a conversation
Speaker:took place in the church regarding
Speaker:disaffiliation, and they went through the entire process,
Speaker:went through the vote, and much of our previous episode was about the
Speaker:voting process itself. In the end, the
Speaker:church, by just a few votes, voted to
Speaker:remain a United Methodist Church.
Speaker:However, the implication of that the impact of that was
Speaker:is that the church split. And some other folks went
Speaker:with the pastor to create a new congregation. A new
Speaker:pastor was brought in to serve the North United
Speaker:Methodist Church. But the implications do not start with
Speaker:those, the impact, the implications do not stop with those
Speaker:facts. What do you do then with the mission and ministry of the church?
Speaker:And that's the process of our conversation here. Where we
Speaker:left our conversation, we talked about some of the confusion and some of
Speaker:the pain and some of the agony of going through the vote and the
Speaker:decisions about that. In this upcoming,
Speaker:conversation we're gonna have, we're gonna focus more on the particular
Speaker:mission and ministry of the church right now
Speaker:and moving forward. And we use the analogy, I think it's applicable
Speaker:of a divorce and a custody battle. So we're gonna
Speaker:get into the conversation here now as we begin the conversation talking
Speaker:around one of the important ministries of the North
Speaker:Madison United Methodist Church, the donut stand they
Speaker:had at their county fair. Let's join the conversation.
Speaker:Our county fair in July, the this church has
Speaker:a concession stand at the donut fair.
Speaker:It's a very long history. It's been there since 1962,
Speaker:first started as a tent, but now it's it's grown into a large
Speaker:concession stand. And it was a large, fundraiser and
Speaker:community outreach for our church. Yeah. We are known for our
Speaker:donuts. Yes. And so you have those kinds
Speaker:of situations. Right? Because then that was not long after the
Speaker:vote. And so the folks that remained there with the church, you know,
Speaker:it was a difficult emotional decision to
Speaker:determine, did they continue to do the donut
Speaker:stand with the folks who had left,
Speaker:who who then went with the pastor who also left and actually
Speaker:formed their own church? So, you know, did they, did
Speaker:they reunite with those folks to do the donut stand or did they
Speaker:try to struggle to do it on their own? Did they there was an
Speaker:offer, actually, a very gracious offer from another United Methodist Church not
Speaker:too far away. That pastor said, you know, our folks will help at the
Speaker:donut stand if you would like us to do that. But those are the kinds
Speaker:of things, right, that are just very emotionally charged that we don't always think
Speaker:about. This doesn't end with the vote. Okay.
Speaker:How how painful and truthful that disaffiliation
Speaker:doesn't end with the vote. And there I can think of many
Speaker:stories. And, when I served in Iowa, we had several
Speaker:churches, that also had stands
Speaker:at the state fair major for many, many
Speaker:years. And so to have, something that's been a
Speaker:long tradition of the church that involved people working together
Speaker:in the community and and gave the church a good name at,
Speaker:at county fair or state fair, that that really,
Speaker:really is painful. How do you how do you go forward with it? I'd be
Speaker:interested to know how they decided to go forward with it. But it
Speaker:certainly is a case where, you know, maybe there's a way to
Speaker:still work with people for something like that on the behalf of the community.
Speaker:But these are examples of of how emotionally
Speaker:charged and how deep some of the
Speaker:some of the wounds can be when there's a split, a
Speaker:formal split of a congre it's different when an individual
Speaker:chooses to leave over theology or
Speaker:or or politics or or personality or
Speaker:doesn't like the pastor, but it's a whole different thing. If the pastor
Speaker:leads part of the congregation away or or
Speaker:if there's a close vote and people have been engaged
Speaker:in an outreach ministry that literally has blessed
Speaker:others and given a good name to the church.
Speaker:Any person who's gone through a marital
Speaker:divorce and a custody battle related
Speaker:to the children of that marriage knows how excruciatingly
Speaker:painful and divisive that experience is.
Speaker:The same emotions are taking place here in this particular local
Speaker:church and played out in many, many, many other churches, indeed,
Speaker:in our entire denomination as we talk about the disaffiliation
Speaker:divorce and the impact of it moving forward.
Speaker:Hear now this story around the donut stand that this
Speaker:particular local church had at their county fair and how that led
Speaker:to some real tension and some real angst that needed
Speaker:to be dealt with, and how prayer was a part of the
Speaker:process interjected into the process to help the
Speaker:all parties to deal with the divorce
Speaker:and the custody matter of doing and of its
Speaker:implications, for for during ministry moving forward.
Speaker:A week after the vote, and we're still, you know, stunned in shock
Speaker:because this is basically a divorce. Yeah. You know, our church went through a a
Speaker:divorce. And that I mean, I'm just keeping it real here. That's what it was.
Speaker:Yeah. And so if you can imagine, we were in our church
Speaker:basement and members from, you know, both sides now
Speaker:were sitting around, you know, large grouping of tables
Speaker:and basically were, you know, going through a divorce. And our 2
Speaker:attorneys was the shepherding pastor and our conference superintendent.
Speaker:And it got heated 3 or 4 times, if you can imagine,
Speaker:pushed through. We did not want to lose this. We did not want
Speaker:to, you know, stop this community outreach. You know,
Speaker:we're we're gonna do it. And, so our conference
Speaker:superintendent, you know, got muted 3 or 4 times, and she
Speaker:broke us up to pray 3 or 4 times. That's how, you know,
Speaker:heated it was getting. Wow. But we, made payments. The
Speaker:It's in there. Yeah. The divorce was, who gets the
Speaker:baby? The it was the donut stand. The donut stand. We, held
Speaker:joint custody last year. We worked we worked through it. I mean,
Speaker:we worked through it. We, and, you know, that's
Speaker:Wow. It sounds like the wisdom of Solomon,
Speaker:but but I don't know what to say,
Speaker:situation like that. You know, what do you do over the course
Speaker:of time? I believe the superintendent's wisdom
Speaker:to break people up in prayer is always in order.
Speaker:And prayer may not result in immediate healing, but
Speaker:it is a directed direction to remind
Speaker:people of whose we are and also remind us of who
Speaker:we are in relation to one another. So my
Speaker:prayer is that even though there may be difficult situations
Speaker:where we have shared an outreach ministry, that we can find
Speaker:ways not only to be civil, but to be compassionate and
Speaker:and really Christian towards one another as we decide
Speaker:how to live in the midst of following a
Speaker:divorce. Mhmm. And as it was aptly just described,
Speaker:that's exactly what this affiliation has been for many
Speaker:congregations.
Speaker:In order for a family to rebuild life after
Speaker:divorce and a custody battle, some new
Speaker:stories have to be told. In this section,
Speaker:pastor Tracy leads us through the process of the Madison
Speaker:North congregation telling their story of what works,
Speaker:retelling their story, and envisioning a new future
Speaker:because everything has to evolve
Speaker:in order for ministry to take place and to be effective
Speaker:and impactful moving forward. So in terms
Speaker:of other resources, as I said, I have at Madison North
Speaker:and I go into churches. And as I said, I, I have
Speaker:a lot of background around narrative and story. I'm
Speaker:also a certified spiritual director. And so my
Speaker:work, a lot of the work that I do is unearthing. What are the stories
Speaker:this congregation is? And really getting to the core,
Speaker:I use the story of of Abram and the beginning
Speaker:of his journey. And when he sets up the stone and
Speaker:worship Scott, who's encountered him on his journey. And I
Speaker:talk with congregations about where are the places where
Speaker:you have, where God has encountered you on your
Speaker:journey over the years that you have been a church
Speaker:together. And then how do you mark those spaces of
Speaker:Encouraged, and what should they look like? And then from
Speaker:that and vision into the future,
Speaker:Because I do believe that although the way that our
Speaker:identity and our call manifests, it has
Speaker:to evolve over time. Right? If we're still doing the same thing that we were
Speaker:doing in 1950, you know, we're in trouble.
Speaker:We are in trouble if we think that the church is gonna return
Speaker:to some form of greatness prior to this
Speaker:affiliation or prior to the pandemic.
Speaker:God is always doing a new thing as as we know from reading,
Speaker:the book of Jeremiah and the book of Isaiah. God is
Speaker:always doing a new thing. And so we should be
Speaker:asking, how can we live into that news thing? I'm
Speaker:really hopeful that not only tri reverend Tracy Leslie, but
Speaker:others will, be able to help congregations embrace their
Speaker:new narrative. Not name we don't need to abandon our
Speaker:history, of the congregations that have been in our
Speaker:communities for over a 175 plus years.
Speaker:But how do we embrace a new narrative of what god is calling us for
Speaker:this present age in our communities.
Speaker:I would recommend people embrace an opportunity to
Speaker:connect with children matter most, embrace an opportunity
Speaker:for, working with Reverend Tracy Leslie around what
Speaker:is your narrative, how do you embrace and celebrate stories and the
Speaker:stories of your congregation and the individual stories we
Speaker:bring together? So we have a lot of work to do, but there's two ways
Speaker:to look at it. Either we we are just focusing on a problem to be
Speaker:fixed or either a new day that God has new ministry
Speaker:for us to engage in.
Speaker:After the mess of a divorce and the
Speaker:excruciating pain of the custody battle, the
Speaker:question remains, where do we go from here?
Speaker:What holds true in a family going through divorce certainly holds true in a
Speaker:congregation going through the divorce, the custody battle,
Speaker:and now the recovery process. Is there a hope? Is
Speaker:there a future? Is there something to be encouraged about? I really
Speaker:want you to listen carefully to what Tanya has
Speaker:shares about her experience at Madison North United Methodist
Speaker:Church, how the church is pulling together
Speaker:in a tighter, closer knit, connected way in
Speaker:order to do ministry together as there's no
Speaker:place else that she'd rather be.
Speaker:Well, we're a much tighter community now. Tracy did work with
Speaker:us, and we've kind of been burying our souls and getting to
Speaker:know each other much, much better. We're a smaller group, and
Speaker:Tracy worked with us on a class. Her companions
Speaker:actually, I have your book here, Tracy. I'll plug it. Companions on a Journey.
Speaker:Because, we're all we're all walking, you know, we're
Speaker:all walking each other home. So we've we're
Speaker:we're working. We have a new new pastor. Even though, we
Speaker:had lost our previous pastor, we were not without someone
Speaker:in the pulpit and for for many, for many
Speaker:months, but now we have a new a new pastor. And,
Speaker:we're very excited for the future. And, but,
Speaker:going forward, I we're also gonna be more in connection with,
Speaker:our other local United Methodist churches, was that from the
Speaker:time I arrived there, I could see that although these folks had been
Speaker:wounded by this, that that they did not wanna just sit around
Speaker:and lick their wounds, that they were ready to go.
Speaker:They wanted to reach into their community. They
Speaker:wanted to do the work that Christ is calling them to do.
Speaker:And so as as we talk about the title of this
Speaker:podcast See. Well, I'm, you know, it's it's important to know
Speaker:your scripture, to be, you know, with Trimble studies, to know your creeds.
Speaker:But how you act your faith and what you do with that knowledge just feels
Speaker:is most important. And, with typical United Methodist
Speaker:fashion, we're rolling up our sleeves. We're getting the job done.
Speaker:And and I, you know, I've always been impressed about the history and
Speaker:heritage to The United Methodist Church. And I just feel to be Encouraged.
Speaker:We are the denomination. We're we're doing it right. And
Speaker:I'm I feel it's it's with open hearts, open minds, and open doors.
Speaker:It it it's the church for me. Awesome.
Speaker:Well, well, I don't apologize for being United Methodist. I C it all the
Speaker:time. I'm Methodist born, United Methodist bred, and then I die.
Speaker:United Methodist dead. I think we should be Encouraged, and I wanna
Speaker:thank reverend Tracy Leslie. I wish I could I wish I
Speaker:could, clone her and make multiple,
Speaker:persons who bring the giftedness and the enthusiasm for connecting
Speaker:disconnected people, not just to United Methodist Church, but
Speaker:to their faith journey. I also wanna take thank
Speaker:Tanya because, it it it it takes courage and
Speaker:commitment to share, the insight
Speaker:of what it looks like when a church is going through
Speaker:discernment and disaffiliation and to stake your
Speaker:ground on what you believe is for you and for me, I
Speaker:would say the best of all Protestant possibilities. I don't
Speaker:disparage other congregations or other denominations. I just
Speaker:believe that the United Methodist Church is a place
Speaker:for people, no matter where they come from, no matter who they are,
Speaker:no matter what station of life they're in. We are a church
Speaker:that not only believes in Jesus and the triune God, but believes
Speaker:that we ought to be welcoming and engaging in
Speaker:ministry with the people in our communities. So I
Speaker:I wanna give a big shout out. I'm encouraged by Tanya
Speaker:Hess and by the reverend Tracy Leslie for their
Speaker:witness. I hope others will listen to this,
Speaker:podcast and know that you can reach out to the Indiana
Speaker:United Methodist Conference and also find support in
Speaker:the connectional church. There's no excuse
Speaker:for us to walk these difficult journeys by ourselves
Speaker:or in isolation. I have been praying for the
Speaker:cabinet has been praying for all of the churches in the
Speaker:Indiana conference, and we pray for all of the churches across the
Speaker:globe, who are proclaiming Jesus Christ as
Speaker:lord and feeding people who are physically hungry and
Speaker:spiritually hungry as well. So I'm encouraged, and I hope others will
Speaker:be encouraged even hearing this challenging and
Speaker:difficult story of how churches have experienced
Speaker:disaffiliation. What a
Speaker:powerful witness and words of encouragement
Speaker:we heard here from Bishop Trimble, to be
Speaker:sure, and also Tracy Leslie,
Speaker:but particularly from Tanya Hess,
Speaker:the layperson from Madison North United Methodist Church. And I hope you
Speaker:heard her words, and I hope you take it to heart. If you
Speaker:are a United Methodist clergy person or a devoted layperson,
Speaker:if your church is going through the conversation around the
Speaker:disaffiliation dilemma, Hear what
Speaker:this one church is doing after they've gone through the painful divorce and
Speaker:the custody battle and all the ramifications
Speaker:personally and personally that took place,
Speaker:where are they at now? Are they a body of encouraged? Are
Speaker:they a defeated group of people? I did not
Speaker:hear a defeated language from Tanya.
Speaker:I heard her say that they are a tighter,
Speaker:more connected congregation, and they're getting after
Speaker:it. The words she uses, we're rolling up our sleeves and we're getting to work.
Speaker:She talked about the history of that church, the history of United
Speaker:Methodism, of Wesleyan Theology, and how important it is and
Speaker:how they are more focused and more engaged
Speaker:about what they are doing to actually serve their community and
Speaker:to carry out the mission of making disciples of Jesus
Speaker:Christ in their world and their community.
Speaker:In the end, what she said I thought was so cool,
Speaker:we're doing it right, and this is the church for me.
Speaker:I know that's the case for myself as well and for Bishop Trimble as
Speaker:well, and we are here to be an encouraging word
Speaker:for you. We hope that you have benefited from
Speaker:this 2 part, episode, this 2 part,
Speaker:episode on the dilemma regarding disaffiliation,
Speaker:and we'll go back to episode number 93 to
Speaker:take part of the understanding of the divorce conversation
Speaker:that takes place in a local church. And that this episode 94 was
Speaker:helpful to give you an encouraging word moving
Speaker:forward about how one church is getting to work in order
Speaker:to do the mission of the church. The
Speaker:mission of the to be encouraged podcast is indeed
Speaker:to offer an encouraging word to an often
Speaker:discouraged world, And we do know that one of
Speaker:the discouraging factors in our United Methodist Church for several years and
Speaker:with general conference upcoming is certainly is a a
Speaker:front of mind is a disaffiliation conversation.
Speaker:But it does not have to lead to the demise
Speaker:of your mission and your ministry as a local clergy person
Speaker:or as a local church, the impact of your
Speaker:local church or as a local church layperson. We
Speaker:can C it and reframe it and under understand that
Speaker:even out of the pain of divorce and the ugliness of, of a
Speaker:custody battle, a new day can be upon us, and a new
Speaker:opportunity can exist to do Bishop that is leaner and more
Speaker:effective and impactful in our communities. I
Speaker:expect to hear great things out of the Madison North United Methodist
Speaker:Church because of the devotion of people like Tanya Hess,
Speaker:And I'm certainly thankful that we have staff people like
Speaker:reverend C Leslie who are devoted to helping churches
Speaker:reframe and tell their stories and to heal spiritually
Speaker:and emotionally and interpersonal dynamics. I'm thankful for the conference
Speaker:superintendent who stepped in to offer prayer in a time
Speaker:of conflict, and I'm thankful for Bishop Julius c Trimble who
Speaker:is all about offering an encouraging and helpful word
Speaker:to local congregations and to you, my friend, the local
Speaker:church United Methodist Church pastor and the local church
Speaker:devoted layperson who needs an encouraging word in an
Speaker:often discouraged world. That is our
Speaker:purpose. That is our focus here, to do to
Speaker:offer an encouraging word. So until next time, friends,
Speaker:speaking for Bishop Julius c Trimble, I am
Speaker:reverend doctor Brad Miller, encouraging you to
Speaker:always do all the good that you
Speaker:can. Consider
Speaker:yourself encouraged and
Speaker:appreciated for listening to be encouraged
Speaker:with Bishop Julius c Trimble. Now, please
Speaker:share the blessing and encourage others in your life to listen,
Speaker:to be encouraged. You can do just that by pointing your
Speaker:people to the website to beencouraged.com.
Speaker:That's tobeencour C,
Speaker:or connect through Apple Podcast where you can
Speaker:follow, rate, and review to be encouraged
Speaker:with Bishop Julius c Trimble. When you do that, you're doing
Speaker:your part to bring a good word to a
Speaker:discouraged world. Remember to listen next week, to be
Speaker:encouraged with Bishop Julius C. Trimble, and never forget,
Speaker:God loves you, and there's nothing you can do about
Speaker:it.
